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	<title>Comments on: Do you REALLY trust women?</title>
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	<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/</link>
	<description>FWD (feminists with disabilities) for a way forward</description>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-8000</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-8000</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a great post. I have a physical disability and am a parent. People&#039;s attitudes really piss me off a lot of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a great post. I have a physical disability and am a parent. People&#8217;s attitudes really piss me off a lot of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: the fat nutritionist</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-7041</link>
		<dc:creator>the fat nutritionist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-7041</guid>
		<description>I am so glad you&#039;re addressing this. I have seen this kind of assumption so, so many times in pro-choice discussions, and it always unsettles me. There is a nice, neo-eugenic ring to the idea that disabled children shouldn&#039;t be born, and that disabled people are irresponsible to reproduce.

Human diversity exists for a reason, and being disabled /= a worthless life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so glad you&#8217;re addressing this. I have seen this kind of assumption so, so many times in pro-choice discussions, and it always unsettles me. There is a nice, neo-eugenic ring to the idea that disabled children shouldn&#8217;t be born, and that disabled people are irresponsible to reproduce.</p>
<p>Human diversity exists for a reason, and being disabled /= a worthless life.</p>
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		<title>By: Ergo</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6977</link>
		<dc:creator>Ergo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6977</guid>
		<description>In case my other comment isn&#039;t getting through moderation (if it&#039;s the latter paragraph that&#039;s offensive, amandaw, you can just delete that part), I&#039;ll just simplify my earlier comment and end it on this: I think that it&#039;s going to be necessary that social services for all mothers and all PWD improve across the board in order for this type of bigotry to decrease significantly. If having a child with a disability isn&#039;t seen as such a burden on mothers in the popular imagination anymore, fewer women will bristle at the possibility of having one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case my other comment isn&#8217;t getting through moderation (if it&#8217;s the latter paragraph that&#8217;s offensive, amandaw, you can just delete that part), I&#8217;ll just simplify my earlier comment and end it on this: I think that it&#8217;s going to be necessary that social services for all mothers and all PWD improve across the board in order for this type of bigotry to decrease significantly. If having a child with a disability isn&#8217;t seen as such a burden on mothers in the popular imagination anymore, fewer women will bristle at the possibility of having one.</p>
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		<title>By: amandaw</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6970</link>
		<dc:creator>amandaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6970</guid>
		<description>Lila, first let me reiterate: your feelings are your own, your reasons are your own, and your decisions are your own. You have a right to have them, and no one can take that away from you, and you do not have to change any of it for anyone else&#039;s sake.

I stated from the start: there is no such thing as an Especially Bad Disability that makes life not worth living. I will not support the hierarchization of disability. The minute we make an exception for this disability as being Especially Bad, we concede the most core value of disability activism: that there are certain states of being that are more/less valuable than others. If we make exceptions, we are enforcing the same ableist structure that oppresses us, and using other people&#039;s &lt;i&gt;lives&lt;/i&gt; to do it.

Life with pain is &lt;i&gt;life&lt;/i&gt;. Period. It can be a bad life or a good life. Just like life without pain. There are people without pain who have completely shitty lives, full of misery and suffering. And there are people with pain who have wonderful, deep, connected, enjoyable, fantastic lives. That&#039;s the thing about life. It can become just about anything.

I grew up under abuse, poverty and an untreated chronic pain condition. And I&#039;d still rather exist than not exist. Now, when it comes to pregnancy, birth or abortion, the argument changes somewhat: it is your decision whether to create another life and allow it to come into existence. You are not obligated to create that life just because the person who results might prefer to exist. That is an anti-choice argument. But at the same time, if you are open to creating that life, and just choosing what kind of life to create... when you make a decision about which life is better to create, and which life you &quot;shouldn&#039;t&quot; create... you are putting a value judgment on the lives that already exist. You are telling them that you don&#039;t think they &quot;should&quot; exist.

It&#039;s one thing to decide &quot;I cannot handle taking care of this person in these circumstances in my life right now.&quot; It&#039;s another thing to decide &quot;I don&#039;t think this kind of person should ever be brought into existence&quot; [by anyone or by yourself individually]. 

That&#039;s the distinction I am trying to make when it comes to everyone&#039;s personal choices. Everyone has a right to their own choices! But the reasoning that underlies some of them is fairly unsettling, from this perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lila, first let me reiterate: your feelings are your own, your reasons are your own, and your decisions are your own. You have a right to have them, and no one can take that away from you, and you do not have to change any of it for anyone else&#8217;s sake.</p>
<p>I stated from the start: there is no such thing as an Especially Bad Disability that makes life not worth living. I will not support the hierarchization of disability. The minute we make an exception for this disability as being Especially Bad, we concede the most core value of disability activism: that there are certain states of being that are more/less valuable than others. If we make exceptions, we are enforcing the same ableist structure that oppresses us, and using other people&#8217;s <i>lives</i> to do it.</p>
<p>Life with pain is <i>life</i>. Period. It can be a bad life or a good life. Just like life without pain. There are people without pain who have completely shitty lives, full of misery and suffering. And there are people with pain who have wonderful, deep, connected, enjoyable, fantastic lives. That&#8217;s the thing about life. It can become just about anything.</p>
<p>I grew up under abuse, poverty and an untreated chronic pain condition. And I&#8217;d still rather exist than not exist. Now, when it comes to pregnancy, birth or abortion, the argument changes somewhat: it is your decision whether to create another life and allow it to come into existence. You are not obligated to create that life just because the person who results might prefer to exist. That is an anti-choice argument. But at the same time, if you are open to creating that life, and just choosing what kind of life to create&#8230; when you make a decision about which life is better to create, and which life you &#8220;shouldn&#8217;t&#8221; create&#8230; you are putting a value judgment on the lives that already exist. You are telling them that you don&#8217;t think they &#8220;should&#8221; exist.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s one thing to decide &#8220;I cannot handle taking care of this person in these circumstances in my life right now.&#8221; It&#8217;s another thing to decide &#8220;I don&#8217;t think this kind of person should ever be brought into existence&#8221; [by anyone or by yourself individually]. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s the distinction I am trying to make when it comes to everyone&#8217;s personal choices. Everyone has a right to their own choices! But the reasoning that underlies some of them is fairly unsettling, from this perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Lila</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6953</link>
		<dc:creator>Lila</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6953</guid>
		<description>I really hope I&#039;m not being hurtful to anyone, but I feel like something is being left out of this conversation: pain.  I have chronic treatment-resistant depression (currently in remission, thank God) and Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, both of which cause (in my case and most cases I&#039;ve heard of) serious pain.  I am conflicted about the future possibility of having children (I&#039;m 24, and I wouldn&#039;t have had kids by now in any case), because while I recognize that atypical mental or physical existence is not a burden in itself, I have a hard time getting to that position on pain (mental and physical).  Honestly, if anyone has experience with or ideas about this issue, I&#039;d be really interested to hear about it.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really hope I&#8217;m not being hurtful to anyone, but I feel like something is being left out of this conversation: pain.  I have chronic treatment-resistant depression (currently in remission, thank God) and Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, both of which cause (in my case and most cases I&#8217;ve heard of) serious pain.  I am conflicted about the future possibility of having children (I&#8217;m 24, and I wouldn&#8217;t have had kids by now in any case), because while I recognize that atypical mental or physical existence is not a burden in itself, I have a hard time getting to that position on pain (mental and physical).  Honestly, if anyone has experience with or ideas about this issue, I&#8217;d be really interested to hear about it.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: amandaw</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6943</link>
		<dc:creator>amandaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6943</guid>
		<description>Not to mention it contributes to the idea of disability as naught but misery and suffering. An attitude that quite literally &lt;i&gt;kills people&lt;/i&gt;. 

It never sits well with me when people bring up women&#039;s role as caretakers as a sole response to anything that advocates positively for PWD and the elderly: it feels a little bit like &quot;You can&#039;t make me,&quot; like being told &quot;I am going to fight my oppression by entrenching yours.&quot; It is one thing to acknowledge the culture that hangs women out to dry on the matter, but it is quite another to use this fact as a &lt;i&gt;refutation&lt;/i&gt; when PWD argue that their lives are not, and should not be, expendable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention it contributes to the idea of disability as naught but misery and suffering. An attitude that quite literally <i>kills people</i>. </p>
<p>It never sits well with me when people bring up women&#8217;s role as caretakers as a sole response to anything that advocates positively for PWD and the elderly: it feels a little bit like &#8220;You can&#8217;t make me,&#8221; like being told &#8220;I am going to fight my oppression by entrenching yours.&#8221; It is one thing to acknowledge the culture that hangs women out to dry on the matter, but it is quite another to use this fact as a <i>refutation</i> when PWD argue that their lives are not, and should not be, expendable.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6941</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6941</guid>
		<description>Ergo, there&#039;s a reason I&#039;m pointing it out as being an argument the eugenics movement and first-wave feminists used.  There&#039;s a history here, and one that I&#039;m not sure a lot of feminists are willing to really consider - &lt;em&gt;the foremothers I keep being told to revere for what they did for me would have argued that my husband should be locked away&lt;/em&gt;.

And, frankly, you&#039;ve described having a child with a disability as the &quot;endless grind of caretaking&quot; - because what?  Having a child with a disability is nothing but pain and suffering?  Because it makes one&#039;s life miserable?  Because merely &lt;em&gt;having disability in your life&lt;/em&gt; = endless grind and caretaking and misery?

You are talking to *actual people* with disabilities - adults who were that &quot;endless grind of misery&quot;, adults who have children you&#039;ve just characterised as an &quot;endless grind of misery&quot;.

I&#039;d like to know why.

Yes - totally, 100%, in a world where there are limited supports for families affected by disabilities (except for other families with disabilities), even in Socialist Canada where the health care is &quot;free&quot; it is &lt;em&gt;damned difficult&lt;/em&gt; to get support for a child with a disability.  It&#039;s rolling a rock up hill.  But it is NOT an endless grind of misery, and telling people that their birth was nothing but misery to their parents is not actually helping it.  Attitudes like that fuel ideas like &quot;women who chose to have children with disabilities are doing something &lt;em&gt;wrong&lt;/em&gt; and don&#039;t &lt;em&gt;deserve&lt;/em&gt; help and support.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ergo, there&#8217;s a reason I&#8217;m pointing it out as being an argument the eugenics movement and first-wave feminists used.  There&#8217;s a history here, and one that I&#8217;m not sure a lot of feminists are willing to really consider &#8211; <em>the foremothers I keep being told to revere for what they did for me would have argued that my husband should be locked away</em>.</p>
<p>And, frankly, you&#8217;ve described having a child with a disability as the &#8220;endless grind of caretaking&#8221; &#8211; because what?  Having a child with a disability is nothing but pain and suffering?  Because it makes one&#8217;s life miserable?  Because merely <em>having disability in your life</em> = endless grind and caretaking and misery?</p>
<p>You are talking to *actual people* with disabilities &#8211; adults who were that &#8220;endless grind of misery&#8221;, adults who have children you&#8217;ve just characterised as an &#8220;endless grind of misery&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to know why.</p>
<p>Yes &#8211; totally, 100%, in a world where there are limited supports for families affected by disabilities (except for other families with disabilities), even in Socialist Canada where the health care is &#8220;free&#8221; it is <em>damned difficult</em> to get support for a child with a disability.  It&#8217;s rolling a rock up hill.  But it is NOT an endless grind of misery, and telling people that their birth was nothing but misery to their parents is not actually helping it.  Attitudes like that fuel ideas like &#8220;women who chose to have children with disabilities are doing something <em>wrong</em> and don&#8217;t <em>deserve</em> help and support.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tori</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6935</link>
		<dc:creator>Tori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 05:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6935</guid>
		<description>When I read this, I think about my mom. She has bipolar, started taking medication for it after she had me, which is when she also got her tubes tied. About three years later, she found herself pregnant with who would be my sister. 

There is No. Way. she could have made a &quot;correct&quot; choice in terms of societal acceptability. 

Terminate the pregnancy? ZOMG, MURDER!* at least according to our pretty fundamentalist religious community. 

Remain on medication while continuing the pregnancy? HOW SELFISH CAN YOU BE? WHAT IF YOU HURT YOUR BABY?*

Discontinue medication while carrying the pregnancy to term? WTF, YOU CANNOT PARENT YOUR BORN CHILD WITHOUT MEDICATION -- YOU&#039;RE BIPOLAR, FOR CHRISSAKES!*

* All of these are close paraphrases of how my mom characterized people&#039;s reactions when talking about this with me as an adult. I have taken liberties in shortening &quot;ZOMG&quot; and &quot;WTF&quot; into &#039;net acronyms. 

But you know what? Mom&#039;s a smart, compassionate, capable person. Always has been. When she decided to do what she thought would be best... it turned out okay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read this, I think about my mom. She has bipolar, started taking medication for it after she had me, which is when she also got her tubes tied. About three years later, she found herself pregnant with who would be my sister. </p>
<p>There is No. Way. she could have made a &#8220;correct&#8221; choice in terms of societal acceptability. </p>
<p>Terminate the pregnancy? ZOMG, MURDER!* at least according to our pretty fundamentalist religious community. </p>
<p>Remain on medication while continuing the pregnancy? HOW SELFISH CAN YOU BE? WHAT IF YOU HURT YOUR BABY?*</p>
<p>Discontinue medication while carrying the pregnancy to term? WTF, YOU CANNOT PARENT YOUR BORN CHILD WITHOUT MEDICATION &#8212; YOU&#8217;RE BIPOLAR, FOR CHRISSAKES!*</p>
<p>* All of these are close paraphrases of how my mom characterized people&#8217;s reactions when talking about this with me as an adult. I have taken liberties in shortening &#8220;ZOMG&#8221; and &#8220;WTF&#8221; into &#8216;net acronyms. </p>
<p>But you know what? Mom&#8217;s a smart, compassionate, capable person. Always has been. When she decided to do what she thought would be best&#8230; it turned out okay.</p>
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		<title>By: Ergo</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6934</link>
		<dc:creator>Ergo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 05:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6934</guid>
		<description>@cathy You nailed it, IMO.

@Anna 

It may be true that early eugenicists used that argument, but that doesn&#039;t erase the fact that women ARE expected to be the automatic caretakers, even nowadays, to the point where their own personal life and autonomy falls by the wayside. And that&#039;s a problem too. No mother&#039;s, no woman&#039;s life should have to be dominated by the endless grind of caretaking (this applies to abled children as well: it&#039;s exhausting, unrewarding labor) because the rest of the world won&#039;t pick up the slack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cathy You nailed it, IMO.</p>
<p>@Anna </p>
<p>It may be true that early eugenicists used that argument, but that doesn&#8217;t erase the fact that women ARE expected to be the automatic caretakers, even nowadays, to the point where their own personal life and autonomy falls by the wayside. And that&#8217;s a problem too. No mother&#8217;s, no woman&#8217;s life should have to be dominated by the endless grind of caretaking (this applies to abled children as well: it&#8217;s exhausting, unrewarding labor) because the rest of the world won&#8217;t pick up the slack.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/22/do-you-really-trust-women/#comment-6930</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 02:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2766#comment-6930</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I would classify prenatal testing as a &quot;need,&quot; exactly, but the problem certainly goes beyond individual &quot;choices,&quot; and even prenatal testing itself.  One significant factor is a huge, pervasive, systemic bias towards providing funds for genetic research--conducted in the hopes of creating additional prenatal tests--rather than for services for PWD and families.  This bias is there in both private and public expenditures.  (i.e. both Autism Speaks and the &quot;Combating Autism Act&quot; devote a majority of funds to research, oftentimes genetic research, and very, very little towards services.  I&#039;m sure that this bias is there with other disabilities as well.)  This deplorable allocation of resources, too, is a choice (made by voters, legislators, and donors everyday), and one which has a profound impact on the entire society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I would classify prenatal testing as a &#8220;need,&#8221; exactly, but the problem certainly goes beyond individual &#8220;choices,&#8221; and even prenatal testing itself.  One significant factor is a huge, pervasive, systemic bias towards providing funds for genetic research&#8211;conducted in the hopes of creating additional prenatal tests&#8211;rather than for services for PWD and families.  This bias is there in both private and public expenditures.  (i.e. both Autism Speaks and the &#8220;Combating Autism Act&#8221; devote a majority of funds to research, oftentimes genetic research, and very, very little towards services.  I&#8217;m sure that this bias is there with other disabilities as well.)  This deplorable allocation of resources, too, is a choice (made by voters, legislators, and donors everyday), and one which has a profound impact on the entire society.</p>
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