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	<title>Comments on: Less Than / More Than &#8211; My complicated thoughts on reproductive rights &amp; feminist discussions</title>
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	<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/</link>
	<description>FWD (feminists with disabilities) for a way forward</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 30 Dec 2010 17:29:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5955</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5955</guid>
		<description>I feel very divided on this issue.  On one hand, I recoil from the idea of telling anyone they shouldn&#039;t reproduce.  I know enough about the history of eugenics to know the problems with that.

On the other hand, I suffer from a genetic disability that has made much of my life very, very difficult.  It&#039;s painful both mentally and physically ALL THE TIME, and many of my dreams have been stripped from me.  I&#039;ve discovered recently that pregnancy would not be wise for me as I could get very sick or die (or the baby could) but honestly, I wouldn&#039;t do it even if I could.  I have already asked my doctor dozens of times for sterilization options.  I can&#039;t let a mistake put another child in the position I have been in all my life.  I will never, ever willingly make another person go through what I have gone through.  Maybe I&#039;ll adopt one day if I progress to the point where I can properly take care of myself (my ability to take care of a child absolutely MUST come before my desire for one) and another person, but that day is not today, nor is it likely to be in my near future.

I feel awkward saying &#039;everyone should be able to have a children, but I think it would be morally wrong and also selfish for me to have one&#039; because what is that really saying?  I don&#039;t know.  All I know is how often I truly wished my mother had just adopted instead of having me.  No child should ever think that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel very divided on this issue.  On one hand, I recoil from the idea of telling anyone they shouldn&#8217;t reproduce.  I know enough about the history of eugenics to know the problems with that.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I suffer from a genetic disability that has made much of my life very, very difficult.  It&#8217;s painful both mentally and physically ALL THE TIME, and many of my dreams have been stripped from me.  I&#8217;ve discovered recently that pregnancy would not be wise for me as I could get very sick or die (or the baby could) but honestly, I wouldn&#8217;t do it even if I could.  I have already asked my doctor dozens of times for sterilization options.  I can&#8217;t let a mistake put another child in the position I have been in all my life.  I will never, ever willingly make another person go through what I have gone through.  Maybe I&#8217;ll adopt one day if I progress to the point where I can properly take care of myself (my ability to take care of a child absolutely MUST come before my desire for one) and another person, but that day is not today, nor is it likely to be in my near future.</p>
<p>I feel awkward saying &#8216;everyone should be able to have a children, but I think it would be morally wrong and also selfish for me to have one&#8217; because what is that really saying?  I don&#8217;t know.  All I know is how often I truly wished my mother had just adopted instead of having me.  No child should ever think that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah TX</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5933</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah TX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 17:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5933</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I am from a family that flat out lacks members without disability or chronic illness. Well okay maybe a couple. It insults my whole extended family to act like we shouldn’t have existed, selfish of us to reproduce, etc. Reminds me of the eugenic fit family contests.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes yes yes. I think this might ultimately be the most insulting part of the whole, &quot;Of COURSE you can&#039;t have kids!&quot; thing, especially for couples that don&#039;t want to have kids. &quot;Of COURSE you don&#039;t want to bring a child into this world with crippling scoliosis&quot; is really, really close to &quot;You have crippling scoliosis and shouldn&#039;t have been born.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I am from a family that flat out lacks members without disability or chronic illness. Well okay maybe a couple. It insults my whole extended family to act like we shouldn’t have existed, selfish of us to reproduce, etc. Reminds me of the eugenic fit family contests.</i></p>
<p>Yes yes yes. I think this might ultimately be the most insulting part of the whole, &#8220;Of COURSE you can&#8217;t have kids!&#8221; thing, especially for couples that don&#8217;t want to have kids. &#8220;Of COURSE you don&#8217;t want to bring a child into this world with crippling scoliosis&#8221; is really, really close to &#8220;You have crippling scoliosis and shouldn&#8217;t have been born.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Becka</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5899</link>
		<dc:creator>Becka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5899</guid>
		<description>When I became ill with bipolar disorder, which my mother also suffered from, my family stopped asking me about marriage and children, and I expected the rest of the world to do the same.  Strangely enough, though I&#039;m still torn over having biological children (or any children at all) myself, I&#039;ve found the most support for my right to reproductive freedom among medical professionals, including several psychiatrists, my gynecologist, and obstetricians I have worked with.  I cried in my car after an appointment with my gynecologist where she explained that an IUD would be reversible &quot;if, say, you met someone and wanted to have kids in a year or two.&quot;  It&#039;s very difficult for me not to feel that I&#039;m somehow barred from partnership and from having children, and not only because pregnancy would be difficult and I might pass on a predisposition to my illness, but simply because I&#039;ve been labeled, and accepted the label of &quot;mentally ill,&quot; which, among the stigma-indoctrinated masses, calls into question my ability to do many things including maintain a long-term relationship and parent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I became ill with bipolar disorder, which my mother also suffered from, my family stopped asking me about marriage and children, and I expected the rest of the world to do the same.  Strangely enough, though I&#8217;m still torn over having biological children (or any children at all) myself, I&#8217;ve found the most support for my right to reproductive freedom among medical professionals, including several psychiatrists, my gynecologist, and obstetricians I have worked with.  I cried in my car after an appointment with my gynecologist where she explained that an IUD would be reversible &#8220;if, say, you met someone and wanted to have kids in a year or two.&#8221;  It&#8217;s very difficult for me not to feel that I&#8217;m somehow barred from partnership and from having children, and not only because pregnancy would be difficult and I might pass on a predisposition to my illness, but simply because I&#8217;ve been labeled, and accepted the label of &#8220;mentally ill,&#8221; which, among the stigma-indoctrinated masses, calls into question my ability to do many things including maintain a long-term relationship and parent.</p>
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		<title>By: AnneC</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5882</link>
		<dc:creator>AnneC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5882</guid>
		<description>I am 31 years old and don&#039;t want to have children. My reasons for not wanting to have children are personal (and frankly rather mundane, along the lines of &quot;there are a million other things I&#039;d rather be doing with my time&quot;). 

In any case, it amazes me just how many people seem to think my reproductive status is somehow their business. Several years ago (when I was in my mid-20s) a co-worker said something to me like &quot;you&#039;d better have kids soon, if you wait too long they&#039;re going to come out deformed!&quot; It wasn&#039;t until later on that the utter bizarritude of that statement really hit me...not just the assumption that it was okay to tell me what I ought to be doing with my uterus and when, but the ableism and ageism.

And then at the same time, I&#039;ve noticed that as soon as someone finds out you&#039;re disabled in some way (I&#039;m on the autistic spectrum and also have a history of thyroid issues and hypermobility), they act like you&#039;re doing some great noble thing by not reproducing. Just...ugh. It&#039;s like no matter what I&#039;m going to get condescending lectures from someone!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am 31 years old and don&#8217;t want to have children. My reasons for not wanting to have children are personal (and frankly rather mundane, along the lines of &#8220;there are a million other things I&#8217;d rather be doing with my time&#8221;). </p>
<p>In any case, it amazes me just how many people seem to think my reproductive status is somehow their business. Several years ago (when I was in my mid-20s) a co-worker said something to me like &#8220;you&#8217;d better have kids soon, if you wait too long they&#8217;re going to come out deformed!&#8221; It wasn&#8217;t until later on that the utter bizarritude of that statement really hit me&#8230;not just the assumption that it was okay to tell me what I ought to be doing with my uterus and when, but the ableism and ageism.</p>
<p>And then at the same time, I&#8217;ve noticed that as soon as someone finds out you&#8217;re disabled in some way (I&#8217;m on the autistic spectrum and also have a history of thyroid issues and hypermobility), they act like you&#8217;re doing some great noble thing by not reproducing. Just&#8230;ugh. It&#8217;s like no matter what I&#8217;m going to get condescending lectures from someone!</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5881</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5881</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll third (fourth?) the wanting autistic children, whether through adoption or natural means.  I really feel that I could be a particularly understanding parent of such a child.  Having grown up with loving and well-meaning non-spectrum parents who made some mistakes, I&#039;d really want to do right by an autistic child.  But if I do have a non-spectrum child I&#039;m sure I would love hir just as much.  I don&#039;t want to feel like I&#039;m ordering a child in a way which ableist people expect a &quot;perfect&quot; child.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll third (fourth?) the wanting autistic children, whether through adoption or natural means.  I really feel that I could be a particularly understanding parent of such a child.  Having grown up with loving and well-meaning non-spectrum parents who made some mistakes, I&#8217;d really want to do right by an autistic child.  But if I do have a non-spectrum child I&#8217;m sure I would love hir just as much.  I don&#8217;t want to feel like I&#8217;m ordering a child in a way which ableist people expect a &#8220;perfect&#8221; child.</p>
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		<title>By: Static Nonsense</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5874</link>
		<dc:creator>Static Nonsense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5874</guid>
		<description>The problems you outline here are exactly why I&#039;m having inner conflict about whether or not I want children of my own. An ex of mine constantly hammered on the idea of having abortion accessible to all &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; of PWD who could pass their &quot;life-long suffering&quot; and &quot;defective genes&quot; to &quot;innocent children&quot;. The irony being? Said person was a PWD. I wound up getting sucked into it and backed up their points like a warhammer, proclaiming myself as child-free because they were for their reasons.

Now I&#039;m struggling to get that poisonous experience and the poisonous words out of my head. I keep thinking to myself that maybe I &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; want kids, but their arguments keep ringing in my head. It haunts me as I try to fight it and sometimes I feel like there&#039;s no hope in defeating the thoughts.

Thank you for posting this. It might help me defeat those inner demons that are left over from the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problems you outline here are exactly why I&#8217;m having inner conflict about whether or not I want children of my own. An ex of mine constantly hammered on the idea of having abortion accessible to all <i>because</i> of PWD who could pass their &#8220;life-long suffering&#8221; and &#8220;defective genes&#8221; to &#8220;innocent children&#8221;. The irony being? Said person was a PWD. I wound up getting sucked into it and backed up their points like a warhammer, proclaiming myself as child-free because they were for their reasons.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m struggling to get that poisonous experience and the poisonous words out of my head. I keep thinking to myself that maybe I <i>do</i> want kids, but their arguments keep ringing in my head. It haunts me as I try to fight it and sometimes I feel like there&#8217;s no hope in defeating the thoughts.</p>
<p>Thank you for posting this. It might help me defeat those inner demons that are left over from the past.</p>
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		<title>By: minna</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5872</link>
		<dc:creator>minna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5872</guid>
		<description>Applying the word &#039;selfish&#039; to decisions to have or not have children always boggles me.  Personal choices are by their very nature selfish.  It&#039;s no more or less selfish to have children than it is to not have them, no matter the reason.  No matter how much more care my children would or would not require, surely that affects myself and my partner/s far more than anyone else?

The fact that people&#039;s BABY BABY BABY gets stopped cold as soon as the reason (25 to 50% chance of schizophrenia, at least according to what I read about it as a teenie) is mentioned drives me up the wall.  Because it&#039;s never &#039;oh, fair enough&#039; in a &#039;you&#039;ve thought about it and made a personal choice&#039; way, it&#039;s always in a &#039;well OBVIOUSLY, because ooga booga booga I watch too much TV&#039;, accompanied with the assumption that diagnosis = flat no, which is very much not the case.  Shut up, crap people, my nanna did better job than most people who &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; have auditory and/or visual hallucinations every day, so clearly that wasn&#039;t an issue for &lt;i&gt;her&lt;/i&gt;.  The fact I want to avoid having a tiny human in my care in the early stages if I can doesn&#039;t mean that it can&#039;t be done, it just means I don&#039;t want to.  Because I&#039;m SELFISH &gt;:(

Also, seconding the &#039;please universe, if I have children let them be ASD&#039;.  Mostly because that the idea of my child giving me &lt;i&gt;that look&lt;/i&gt; because I took something literally or forgot to look their friends&#039; parents in the eye would be so much worse than getting it from strangers, or even partners.  :(  I&#039;m unlikely to have kids anyway, but still.

Sorry if this is tl;dr.  I JUST HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS, OKAY :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Applying the word &#8216;selfish&#8217; to decisions to have or not have children always boggles me.  Personal choices are by their very nature selfish.  It&#8217;s no more or less selfish to have children than it is to not have them, no matter the reason.  No matter how much more care my children would or would not require, surely that affects myself and my partner/s far more than anyone else?</p>
<p>The fact that people&#8217;s BABY BABY BABY gets stopped cold as soon as the reason (25 to 50% chance of schizophrenia, at least according to what I read about it as a teenie) is mentioned drives me up the wall.  Because it&#8217;s never &#8216;oh, fair enough&#8217; in a &#8216;you&#8217;ve thought about it and made a personal choice&#8217; way, it&#8217;s always in a &#8216;well OBVIOUSLY, because ooga booga booga I watch too much TV&#8217;, accompanied with the assumption that diagnosis = flat no, which is very much not the case.  Shut up, crap people, my nanna did better job than most people who <i>didn&#8217;t</i> have auditory and/or visual hallucinations every day, so clearly that wasn&#8217;t an issue for <i>her</i>.  The fact I want to avoid having a tiny human in my care in the early stages if I can doesn&#8217;t mean that it can&#8217;t be done, it just means I don&#8217;t want to.  Because I&#8217;m SELFISH &gt;:(</p>
<p>Also, seconding the &#8216;please universe, if I have children let them be ASD&#8217;.  Mostly because that the idea of my child giving me <i>that look</i> because I took something literally or forgot to look their friends&#8217; parents in the eye would be so much worse than getting it from strangers, or even partners.  <img src='http://disabledfeminists.com/fwd/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' />   I&#8217;m unlikely to have kids anyway, but still.</p>
<p>Sorry if this is tl;dr.  I JUST HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS, OKAY <img src='http://disabledfeminists.com/fwd/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: zingerella</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5871</link>
		<dc:creator>zingerella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5871</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe I have any right to make any comments about who would/would not be a great parent, anymore than I have any right to make any comments about who should/should not be born. I believe strongly that as a society, we owe it to all of us to make sure that all families have access to the support they need to function the best they can, that all people have access to the support they need to at least try to meet their goals. 

I believe that parents or potential parents who have disabilities are pretty well aware of their own abilities, their own strengths and weaknesses, and I trust them to make thoughtful choices. I believe that parents or potential parents who don&#039;t have disabilities are also pretty well aware of their own abilities, strengths, and weaknesses, and I trust them to make thoughtful choices. I trust people to make thoughtful choices, even when they&#039;re young, poor, or pregnant, and &lt;i&gt;even when their choices are not the choices I would make for myself or my family.&lt;/i&gt;

And I believe that as a society, we need to be better at looking out for each other so that when parents, families, and people do find themselves struggling with the choices they&#039;ve made, they have easy access to the support and help they need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe I have any right to make any comments about who would/would not be a great parent, anymore than I have any right to make any comments about who should/should not be born. I believe strongly that as a society, we owe it to all of us to make sure that all families have access to the support they need to function the best they can, that all people have access to the support they need to at least try to meet their goals. </p>
<p>I believe that parents or potential parents who have disabilities are pretty well aware of their own abilities, their own strengths and weaknesses, and I trust them to make thoughtful choices. I believe that parents or potential parents who don&#8217;t have disabilities are also pretty well aware of their own abilities, strengths, and weaknesses, and I trust them to make thoughtful choices. I trust people to make thoughtful choices, even when they&#8217;re young, poor, or pregnant, and <i>even when their choices are not the choices I would make for myself or my family.</i></p>
<p>And I believe that as a society, we need to be better at looking out for each other so that when parents, families, and people do find themselves struggling with the choices they&#8217;ve made, they have easy access to the support and help they need.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5870</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5870</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t believe one of the first replies said it would be selfish to knowingly bring a disabled child into the world and made it sound like being disabled makes it less possible to be all you can be. 

I am from a family that flat out lacks members without disability or chronic illness. Well okay maybe a couple. It insults my whole extended family to act like we shouldn&#039;t have existed, selfish of us to reproduce, etc. Reminds me of the eugenic fit family contests. 

I have been told I shouldn&#039;t reproduce because there might be more like me (WTF) or because I am supposedly too severely disabled to raise a child (er, no). I bet lots of people are relieved to hear I medically wouldn&#039;t survive pregnancy and seem to have spontaneously quit menstruating. (Then I won&#039;t make more of me, the horror!)

If people don&#039;t realize how offensive this is... I have no words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe one of the first replies said it would be selfish to knowingly bring a disabled child into the world and made it sound like being disabled makes it less possible to be all you can be. </p>
<p>I am from a family that flat out lacks members without disability or chronic illness. Well okay maybe a couple. It insults my whole extended family to act like we shouldn&#8217;t have existed, selfish of us to reproduce, etc. Reminds me of the eugenic fit family contests. </p>
<p>I have been told I shouldn&#8217;t reproduce because there might be more like me (WTF) or because I am supposedly too severely disabled to raise a child (er, no). I bet lots of people are relieved to hear I medically wouldn&#8217;t survive pregnancy and seem to have spontaneously quit menstruating. (Then I won&#8217;t make more of me, the horror!)</p>
<p>If people don&#8217;t realize how offensive this is&#8230; I have no words.</p>
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		<title>By: thetroubleis</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/05/less-than-more-than-my-complicated-thoughts-on-reproductive-rights-feminist-discussions/#comment-5854</link>
		<dc:creator>thetroubleis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=2321#comment-5854</guid>
		<description>Great post. I do want children and I do want to adopt. I even have a preference for *gasp* disabled children. In my personal situation, I know I could be a good mother if I adopted, but not if I go through with pregnancy.

Of course, there are many issues with ableism and adoption, such as children with disabilities be on separate listings and costing less to adopt. My parents got a discount on me becuase I was a black girl who they thought would have intellectual disabilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. I do want children and I do want to adopt. I even have a preference for *gasp* disabled children. In my personal situation, I know I could be a good mother if I adopted, but not if I go through with pregnancy.</p>
<p>Of course, there are many issues with ableism and adoption, such as children with disabilities be on separate listings and costing less to adopt. My parents got a discount on me becuase I was a black girl who they thought would have intellectual disabilities.</p>
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