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	<title>Comments on: Denial of Access In the Name of &#8220;Historic Preservation&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/</link>
	<description>FWD (feminists with disabilities) for a way forward</description>
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		<title>By: Jesse the K</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3757</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse the K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3757</guid>
		<description>@11 SimplySutton! &lt;i&gt;I am advised to arrive two hours early just to get a good seat, never mind a handicapped parking spot, which raises serious questions about my ability to maintain for long enough to get to the ceremony, never mind through it.&lt;/i&gt; 

That pushes one of my loose buttons. Event planners expect that walking people will show up. They don&#039;t wait until the very last minute to put out chairs. And there &lt;b&gt;will&lt;/b&gt; be wheelchair/scooter users as well. Somehow &lt;i&gt;those&lt;/i&gt; of us who bring our own seats are expected to show up early to ensure themselves a place, or be willing to ask four people to move?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@11 SimplySutton! <i>I am advised to arrive two hours early just to get a good seat, never mind a handicapped parking spot, which raises serious questions about my ability to maintain for long enough to get to the ceremony, never mind through it.</i> </p>
<p>That pushes one of my loose buttons. Event planners expect that walking people will show up. They don&#8217;t wait until the very last minute to put out chairs. And there <b>will</b> be wheelchair/scooter users as well. Somehow <i>those</i> of us who bring our own seats are expected to show up early to ensure themselves a place, or be willing to ask four people to move?</p>
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		<title>By: zingerella</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3601</link>
		<dc:creator>zingerella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3601</guid>
		<description>Historical preservation is a really silly excuse. Most historical sites have ahistorical features. They have cars and roads wide enough for cars and everything that goes with car-culture: stoplights and road signs, parking, parking meters, etc. They have electric lights, including streetlights. They have modern plumbing: residents and guests are not expected to use the historical privies. Many buildings have air conditioning and modern heating: people don&#039;t cluster around the fireplace or woodstove in winter, or fan themselves with palm fans in the summer as the sole means of cooling down. As meloukhia points out, in addition to cars, they have smoke detectors and ATMs and other conveniences that didn&#039;t exist before the last century. 

Residents and guests accept those compromises because they can&#039;t imagine living without the convenience they entail. It would, after all, be impossible to live without a car (writes the woman who has done so her entire adult life). It&#039;s pretty darned sad that people&#039;s need to make things convenient and bearable extends only to their own needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historical preservation is a really silly excuse. Most historical sites have ahistorical features. They have cars and roads wide enough for cars and everything that goes with car-culture: stoplights and road signs, parking, parking meters, etc. They have electric lights, including streetlights. They have modern plumbing: residents and guests are not expected to use the historical privies. Many buildings have air conditioning and modern heating: people don&#8217;t cluster around the fireplace or woodstove in winter, or fan themselves with palm fans in the summer as the sole means of cooling down. As meloukhia points out, in addition to cars, they have smoke detectors and ATMs and other conveniences that didn&#8217;t exist before the last century. </p>
<p>Residents and guests accept those compromises because they can&#8217;t imagine living without the convenience they entail. It would, after all, be impossible to live without a car (writes the woman who has done so her entire adult life). It&#8217;s pretty darned sad that people&#8217;s need to make things convenient and bearable extends only to their own needs.</p>
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		<title>By: Simply Sutton</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3570</link>
		<dc:creator>Simply Sutton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3570</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this, Meloukhia. This is a really nice job of documenting an accessibility mess! 

Some things, as other posters have already noted above, will never be made completely accessible without ruining them. Where accommodations can be made, however, they should be--and I agree that a lot of these places could be made at least partially accessible. &lt;i&gt;No&lt;/i&gt; &quot;event&quot; should &lt;i&gt;ever&lt;/i&gt; be held in an inaccessible building. 

I had to accompany my husband to a medical procedure yesterday, performed on an outpatient basis in a building on the campus of a hospital. You would expect that would be accessible, no?

I wish now I had taken pictures, but I was so pissed off I completely forgot I had a camera phone! There were four, and only four, handicap parking spaces out front. In the waiting room were four persons with visible disabilities, including myself. It was a smallish building with a small number of clinics, but even so, extrapolating from what I could see with my own eyes I would have to guess that there could be from two to three dozen of us in that building at any one time. Four parking spaces. 

At any rate, there were enough of us that the four spots were already taken when my husband and I arrived. The next available parking space was up a little hill, so that when I got ready to come into the building I had to to step up a curb and then go down eight steps. I&#039;m ambulatory, so that was not so bad. But the clinic where he had his procedure done was kept cold to kill germs, and cold triggers my symptoms so by the time we came out two hours later I was so weak that I had serious difficulty getting back up those eight steps to get the car. (If I had a scooter, I would have followed the road and avoided the steps, but it would have taken me so far out of my way as to make walking it out of the question.)

Next month, I am attending a graduation ceremony on a local university branch campus which is noted for poor disability access. I am advised to arrive two hours early just to get a good seat, never mind a handicapped parking spot, which raises serious questions about my ability to maintain for long enough to get to the ceremony, never mind through it. 

It is all so frustrating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this, Meloukhia. This is a really nice job of documenting an accessibility mess! </p>
<p>Some things, as other posters have already noted above, will never be made completely accessible without ruining them. Where accommodations can be made, however, they should be&#8211;and I agree that a lot of these places could be made at least partially accessible. <i>No</i> &#8220;event&#8221; should <i>ever</i> be held in an inaccessible building. </p>
<p>I had to accompany my husband to a medical procedure yesterday, performed on an outpatient basis in a building on the campus of a hospital. You would expect that would be accessible, no?</p>
<p>I wish now I had taken pictures, but I was so pissed off I completely forgot I had a camera phone! There were four, and only four, handicap parking spaces out front. In the waiting room were four persons with visible disabilities, including myself. It was a smallish building with a small number of clinics, but even so, extrapolating from what I could see with my own eyes I would have to guess that there could be from two to three dozen of us in that building at any one time. Four parking spaces. </p>
<p>At any rate, there were enough of us that the four spots were already taken when my husband and I arrived. The next available parking space was up a little hill, so that when I got ready to come into the building I had to to step up a curb and then go down eight steps. I&#8217;m ambulatory, so that was not so bad. But the clinic where he had his procedure done was kept cold to kill germs, and cold triggers my symptoms so by the time we came out two hours later I was so weak that I had serious difficulty getting back up those eight steps to get the car. (If I had a scooter, I would have followed the road and avoided the steps, but it would have taken me so far out of my way as to make walking it out of the question.)</p>
<p>Next month, I am attending a graduation ceremony on a local university branch campus which is noted for poor disability access. I am advised to arrive two hours early just to get a good seat, never mind a handicapped parking spot, which raises serious questions about my ability to maintain for long enough to get to the ceremony, never mind through it. </p>
<p>It is all so frustrating.</p>
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		<title>By: meloukhia</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3568</link>
		<dc:creator>meloukhia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3568</guid>
		<description>Actually, Avalon&#039;s Willow, there was a &lt;em&gt;huge&lt;/em&gt; controversy when a cell tower was finally put in (before then, there was no service). But that controversy was no over reasons of historical preservation!

I also have a lot of problems with Disney, but their commitment to accessibility sure leaves Mendo in the dust.

ETA: Except when they&#039;re leaving the closed captioning off DVDs, at any rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Avalon&#8217;s Willow, there was a <em>huge</em> controversy when a cell tower was finally put in (before then, there was no service). But that controversy was no over reasons of historical preservation!</p>
<p>I also have a lot of problems with Disney, but their commitment to accessibility sure leaves Mendo in the dust.</p>
<p>ETA: Except when they&#8217;re leaving the closed captioning off DVDs, at any rate.</p>
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		<title>By: Avalon's Willow</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3549</link>
		<dc:creator>Avalon's Willow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3549</guid>
		<description>Quick couple of questions.

In Mendocino, do people get arrested or at least hassled for using in public; cellphones, laptops, digital watches?

Are all modern cars kept in a parking lot just outside of town?

Is everything lit by gas lamp?

Are all citizens of the town required to walk around in period clothing?

Cause funny thing how Disney manages to allow the modern world and access for those with disabilities while having actual people in costume etc... I mean there&#039;s a lot about Disney that makes me roll my eyes, sigh or just makes me want to walk away. But being utter evil steps about accessibility, isn&#039;t really one of them.

--

Huh, I started writing this before I even saw your bit about interracial marriage and same sex commitment ceremonies

Randomly: How often do they get sued when someone falls and hurts themselves on something that could have been avoided?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick couple of questions.</p>
<p>In Mendocino, do people get arrested or at least hassled for using in public; cellphones, laptops, digital watches?</p>
<p>Are all modern cars kept in a parking lot just outside of town?</p>
<p>Is everything lit by gas lamp?</p>
<p>Are all citizens of the town required to walk around in period clothing?</p>
<p>Cause funny thing how Disney manages to allow the modern world and access for those with disabilities while having actual people in costume etc&#8230; I mean there&#8217;s a lot about Disney that makes me roll my eyes, sigh or just makes me want to walk away. But being utter evil steps about accessibility, isn&#8217;t really one of them.</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>Huh, I started writing this before I even saw your bit about interracial marriage and same sex commitment ceremonies</p>
<p>Randomly: How often do they get sued when someone falls and hurts themselves on something that could have been avoided?</p>
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		<title>By: rainbow</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3533</link>
		<dc:creator>rainbow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3533</guid>
		<description>i remember being in mendocino back in 1990, before i had serious mobility issues, and even then it was difficult to get around -- unexpected steps, uneven floors, entrances that dropped suddenly a few inches.

i&#039;m sad to see it&#039;s still a problem, since it was a lovely town to look at. but it would be much lovelier if it was accessible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i remember being in mendocino back in 1990, before i had serious mobility issues, and even then it was difficult to get around &#8212; unexpected steps, uneven floors, entrances that dropped suddenly a few inches.</p>
<p>i&#8217;m sad to see it&#8217;s still a problem, since it was a lovely town to look at. but it would be much lovelier if it was accessible.</p>
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		<title>By: romham</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3516</link>
		<dc:creator>romham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3516</guid>
		<description>It depends of where you&#039;re talking about, but in general it&#039;s fair to say that yes, it&#039;s &quot;historically accurate&quot; that disabled folks were shunned, hidden, institutionalized, criminalized, segregated. So i suppose Mendocino is just doing their part! Ugh.

And i didnt know they had ATMs in the 1800&#039;s! You learn something new every day on this site. Thanks FWD!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It depends of where you&#8217;re talking about, but in general it&#8217;s fair to say that yes, it&#8217;s &#8220;historically accurate&#8221; that disabled folks were shunned, hidden, institutionalized, criminalized, segregated. So i suppose Mendocino is just doing their part! Ugh.</p>
<p>And i didnt know they had ATMs in the 1800&#8242;s! You learn something new every day on this site. Thanks FWD!</p>
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		<title>By: LeeLee</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3506</link>
		<dc:creator>LeeLee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3506</guid>
		<description>I live just a few miles from George Washington&#039;s Mt Vernon estate. There is really no way to make the house and part of the grounds accessible - it&#039;s multi-level and everything is narrow and I doubt it would structurally accomodate an elevator. It&#039;s also privately maintained, so the rules are different than if it were government property. But, they do note on the website and brochures what few places are accessible there and also that most of the property if inaccessible. At least they give fair warning, as it is a huge tourist destination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live just a few miles from George Washington&#8217;s Mt Vernon estate. There is really no way to make the house and part of the grounds accessible &#8211; it&#8217;s multi-level and everything is narrow and I doubt it would structurally accomodate an elevator. It&#8217;s also privately maintained, so the rules are different than if it were government property. But, they do note on the website and brochures what few places are accessible there and also that most of the property if inaccessible. At least they give fair warning, as it is a huge tourist destination.</p>
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		<title>By: Norah</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3497</link>
		<dc:creator>Norah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3497</guid>
		<description>We have lots of inaccessible buildings everywhere (I think at least 90% of the buildings I see are inaccessible for a lot of disabled people, of which wheelchair inaccessibility maybe stands out the most but is not the only thing), but if they&#039;re declared &#039;monuments&#039; or historic or whatever, they&#039;re unlikely to EVER change (not that I see the other buildings changing in a hurry). The University I attended for a time was like that (actually most of it is in a modern location with huge and as far as I could tell wheelchair accessible buildings, but the Arts department is located in the inner city), old innercity Utrecht buildings, usually one entrance only, the inside a maze of stairs and tiny hallways (I think it&#039;s not even allowed, like by safety rules and fire hazard, etc, for buildings to be like those buildings, but maybe the historic label okays that too). I frankly don&#039;t see a way they could ever make those buildings accessible unless they tore them down and built completely new ones. Often the dimensions inside are weird too, incorporating whole nextdoor buildings or parts of them. Maybe historic buildings elsewhere are different, but making these accessible would mean tearing down a whole lot of walls and finding some place to put at least one elevator and completely redesigning the classrooms, and there might also be a problem with moving any walls with the ceilings which are especially protected because of the fresco thingies and such. Not to mention the problems with the street, no sidewalks to speak of and cars to drive there even though it&#039;s the inner city, and that the roads and sidewalks are paved with probably won&#039;t do either. 

I want all that (inaccessibility) to change (preferably without damaging the buildings, but otherwise maybe they DO need to tear them down, maybe keep the old look for the outside. If they really need to, maybe they could move the buildings to an outdoor history museum, like they do for other old buildings we want to preserve but really can&#039;t make use of anymore). A lot of buildings that stem from times when people were a lot smaller on average than they are now (over here anyway) are either torn down or modified, people seem to think that&#039;s only practical, but apparently accessibility for all kinds of disabilities is not as important. It&#039;s not like they couldn&#039;t build new buildings and make new streets that have the same atmosphere or general looks as the older ones, it&#039;s not like all modern buildings NEED to look futuristic or block-like or factory made (like they all look the same everywhere too). We have no issues tearing down or modifying stuff built in the 50&#039;s. They also have no issues modifying the really old buildings if a shop moves in, to house bigger windows for display and signs on the outside and modify the inside too, but somehow it&#039;s a waste of old buildings if we modify them for accessibility?

I&#039;ve also always wondered why they put a University department in those buildings. They are more than just impractical for EVERYONE and may be simply impossible for a lot of people. I want everything to be accessible, but I wonder especially about something like a University not being accessible. Just seems like stuff like schools, libaries, stores, hospitals especially should be and it feels more irresponsible when they are not.

Also, the other, modern University location may be accessible for wheelchair or cane users (I&#039;m not actually 100% sure, but it seemed that way the few times I went there for exams), but I&#039;m not sure if they are accessible in any other way (actually I know for sure they are not sensory-friendly, from experience). None of the buildings, inner city or other location, are made for people to actually find their way in, that&#039;s for sure. 4 years there and I never did really manage to find things very well anywhere.

And I&#039;m pretty new to thinking about accessibility for buildings or events (in all ways, including they ways I&#039;d need them to be made accessible for myself), so if there are any errors either in my knowledge or in the way I&#039;m reasoning or looking at this I&#039;d like to know, because the topic is important to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have lots of inaccessible buildings everywhere (I think at least 90% of the buildings I see are inaccessible for a lot of disabled people, of which wheelchair inaccessibility maybe stands out the most but is not the only thing), but if they&#8217;re declared &#8216;monuments&#8217; or historic or whatever, they&#8217;re unlikely to EVER change (not that I see the other buildings changing in a hurry). The University I attended for a time was like that (actually most of it is in a modern location with huge and as far as I could tell wheelchair accessible buildings, but the Arts department is located in the inner city), old innercity Utrecht buildings, usually one entrance only, the inside a maze of stairs and tiny hallways (I think it&#8217;s not even allowed, like by safety rules and fire hazard, etc, for buildings to be like those buildings, but maybe the historic label okays that too). I frankly don&#8217;t see a way they could ever make those buildings accessible unless they tore them down and built completely new ones. Often the dimensions inside are weird too, incorporating whole nextdoor buildings or parts of them. Maybe historic buildings elsewhere are different, but making these accessible would mean tearing down a whole lot of walls and finding some place to put at least one elevator and completely redesigning the classrooms, and there might also be a problem with moving any walls with the ceilings which are especially protected because of the fresco thingies and such. Not to mention the problems with the street, no sidewalks to speak of and cars to drive there even though it&#8217;s the inner city, and that the roads and sidewalks are paved with probably won&#8217;t do either. </p>
<p>I want all that (inaccessibility) to change (preferably without damaging the buildings, but otherwise maybe they DO need to tear them down, maybe keep the old look for the outside. If they really need to, maybe they could move the buildings to an outdoor history museum, like they do for other old buildings we want to preserve but really can&#8217;t make use of anymore). A lot of buildings that stem from times when people were a lot smaller on average than they are now (over here anyway) are either torn down or modified, people seem to think that&#8217;s only practical, but apparently accessibility for all kinds of disabilities is not as important. It&#8217;s not like they couldn&#8217;t build new buildings and make new streets that have the same atmosphere or general looks as the older ones, it&#8217;s not like all modern buildings NEED to look futuristic or block-like or factory made (like they all look the same everywhere too). We have no issues tearing down or modifying stuff built in the 50&#8242;s. They also have no issues modifying the really old buildings if a shop moves in, to house bigger windows for display and signs on the outside and modify the inside too, but somehow it&#8217;s a waste of old buildings if we modify them for accessibility?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also always wondered why they put a University department in those buildings. They are more than just impractical for EVERYONE and may be simply impossible for a lot of people. I want everything to be accessible, but I wonder especially about something like a University not being accessible. Just seems like stuff like schools, libaries, stores, hospitals especially should be and it feels more irresponsible when they are not.</p>
<p>Also, the other, modern University location may be accessible for wheelchair or cane users (I&#8217;m not actually 100% sure, but it seemed that way the few times I went there for exams), but I&#8217;m not sure if they are accessible in any other way (actually I know for sure they are not sensory-friendly, from experience). None of the buildings, inner city or other location, are made for people to actually find their way in, that&#8217;s for sure. 4 years there and I never did really manage to find things very well anywhere.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m pretty new to thinking about accessibility for buildings or events (in all ways, including they ways I&#8217;d need them to be made accessible for myself), so if there are any errors either in my knowledge or in the way I&#8217;m reasoning or looking at this I&#8217;d like to know, because the topic is important to me.</p>
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		<title>By: thetroubleis</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/11/25/denial-of-access-in-the-name-of-historic-preservation/#comment-3495</link>
		<dc:creator>thetroubleis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1051#comment-3495</guid>
		<description>&quot;Indeed, designing accessibility accommodations which fit seamlessly with an area of historic preservation would be a really interesting design challenge, and one which I think could be met in some very creative ways.&quot;

Can I just second this? Beyond the wrongness of denying people access, there is nothing about accessibility that has to be ugly. Saying that is just stalling tactic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Indeed, designing accessibility accommodations which fit seamlessly with an area of historic preservation would be a really interesting design challenge, and one which I think could be met in some very creative ways.&#8221;</p>
<p>Can I just second this? Beyond the wrongness of denying people access, there is nothing about accessibility that has to be ugly. Saying that is just stalling tactic.</p>
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