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	<title>Comments on: Law &amp; Order: &#8220;Dignity&#8221;, Worth, and the Medical Model of Disability</title>
	<atom:link href="http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/</link>
	<description>FWD (feminists with disabilities) for a way forward</description>
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		<title>By: kitrona</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-2252</link>
		<dc:creator>kitrona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-2252</guid>
		<description>Wow. I am... gobsmacked, I think is the word. Lots to think about. Thanks for the push to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. I am&#8230; gobsmacked, I think is the word. Lots to think about. Thanks for the push to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: MomTFH</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1463</link>
		<dc:creator>MomTFH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 03:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1463</guid>
		<description>Great post. I am happy to say I don&#039;t watch the show and didn&#039;t see this infuriating episode.

I discussed preimplantation screening in my medical ethics class, and just taught lab &amp; diagnostic testing to a midwifery class.

One of the issues I made sure did not get ignored in either conversation is the ethical issue with assuming many conditions that can be screened for should be eliminated. In my ethics class, this was after correcting the woefully inadequate professor, who could only say &quot;But if you decide not to transfer an embryo, that&#039;s killing babies!!!&quot;
.-= MomTFH´s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://momstinfoilhat.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/moving-during-labor/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Moving during labor&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. I am happy to say I don&#8217;t watch the show and didn&#8217;t see this infuriating episode.</p>
<p>I discussed preimplantation screening in my medical ethics class, and just taught lab &amp; diagnostic testing to a midwifery class.</p>
<p>One of the issues I made sure did not get ignored in either conversation is the ethical issue with assuming many conditions that can be screened for should be eliminated. In my ethics class, this was after correcting the woefully inadequate professor, who could only say &#8220;But if you decide not to transfer an embryo, that&#8217;s killing babies!!!&#8221;<br />
<span class="cluv"> MomTFH´s last blog ..<a href="http://momstinfoilhat.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/moving-during-labor/" rel="nofollow">Moving during labor</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://disabledfeminists.com/fwd/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: LeeLee</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1371</link>
		<dc:creator>LeeLee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1371</guid>
		<description>lauredhel -  Sorry! I wasn&#039;t referring to your position at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lauredhel &#8211;  Sorry! I wasn&#8217;t referring to your position at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1339</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 03:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1339</guid>
		<description>Regarding dignity/autonomy, usually when I see &quot;dignity&quot; referred to in reference to a disabled person it&#039;s a code-word for &quot;toileting&quot;, and specifically to the idea that disabled people who need help with any aspect of toileting are &quot;without dignity&quot; somehow.
.-= Amanda´s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=582&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stuff I’ve been reading.&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding dignity/autonomy, usually when I see &#8220;dignity&#8221; referred to in reference to a disabled person it&#8217;s a code-word for &#8220;toileting&#8221;, and specifically to the idea that disabled people who need help with any aspect of toileting are &#8220;without dignity&#8221; somehow.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Amanda´s last blog ..<a href="http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=582" rel="nofollow">Stuff I’ve been reading.</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://disabledfeminists.com/fwd/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: lauredhel</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1338</link>
		<dc:creator>lauredhel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1338</guid>
		<description>LeeLee:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;I tend to think that if one is pro-choice, it’s best to not qualify that position AT ALL, because in qualifying, one may say or imply things that one doesn’t mean.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Do you see this post as being in this category? (Your &quot;one&quot; construction is difficult to interpret.) Do you think I have said something that I don&#039;t mean here?

This is not an &quot;I&#039;m pro-choice BUT&quot; post. This is an &quot;I&#039;m pro-choice AND&quot; post. Looking at what choice is and  how it is constrained and directed is, or should be, an absolutely essential part of feminism. Without it, all we would have is hard libertarianism, and look how disastrous that would be for women with disabilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LeeLee:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I tend to think that if one is pro-choice, it’s best to not qualify that position AT ALL, because in qualifying, one may say or imply things that one doesn’t mean.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Do you see this post as being in this category? (Your &#8220;one&#8221; construction is difficult to interpret.) Do you think I have said something that I don&#8217;t mean here?</p>
<p>This is not an &#8220;I&#8217;m pro-choice BUT&#8221; post. This is an &#8220;I&#8217;m pro-choice AND&#8221; post. Looking at what choice is and  how it is constrained and directed is, or should be, an absolutely essential part of feminism. Without it, all we would have is hard libertarianism, and look how disastrous that would be for women with disabilities.</p>
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		<title>By: notthemarimba</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1324</link>
		<dc:creator>notthemarimba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1324</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t really have much to add, but dang is this a great post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t really have much to add, but dang is this a great post.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlönista</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1316</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlönista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1316</guid>
		<description>I know I keep saying this about posts but this is the BEST POST EVER. Ableism and eugenicist thought are so deeply entrenched in pro-choice feminist rhetoric sometimes I doubt they can ever be disentangled. &lt;em&gt;The right to choose&lt;/em&gt; is conflated with &lt;em&gt;the right to choose what sort of people should exist&lt;/em&gt;. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Marginalised groups are as likely to be fighting for their right to reproduce as their right not to – people of colour, trans people, lesbians, and of course women with disabilities, who have been denied sex education and forcibly subjected to contraception and sterilisation for centuries.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This this this. This is never centred in mainstream (white TAB cis straight middle-class) feminist discussion, which is largely about the right to abort.

It&#039;s ironic/infuriating that forced-birthers may not give a shit about the lives of &lt;em&gt;women&lt;/em&gt;...unless they&#039;re &lt;em&gt;disabled&lt;/em&gt;. And haven&#039;t been born yet.

&lt;blockquote&gt;We live in a world where temporarily-abled people feel quite comfortable going up to people with disabilities and saying “If I were like you, I’d kill myself.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am just waiting for some pitying, clueless mfer to read about my life and say, &quot;If I got to be [suicidal] like you, I&#039;d kill myself.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I keep saying this about posts but this is the BEST POST EVER. Ableism and eugenicist thought are so deeply entrenched in pro-choice feminist rhetoric sometimes I doubt they can ever be disentangled. <em>The right to choose</em> is conflated with <em>the right to choose what sort of people should exist</em>. </p>
<blockquote><p>Marginalised groups are as likely to be fighting for their right to reproduce as their right not to – people of colour, trans people, lesbians, and of course women with disabilities, who have been denied sex education and forcibly subjected to contraception and sterilisation for centuries.</p></blockquote>
<p>This this this. This is never centred in mainstream (white TAB cis straight middle-class) feminist discussion, which is largely about the right to abort.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ironic/infuriating that forced-birthers may not give a shit about the lives of <em>women</em>&#8230;unless they&#8217;re <em>disabled</em>. And haven&#8217;t been born yet.</p>
<blockquote><p>We live in a world where temporarily-abled people feel quite comfortable going up to people with disabilities and saying “If I were like you, I’d kill myself.”</p></blockquote>
<p>I am just waiting for some pitying, clueless mfer to read about my life and say, &#8220;If I got to be [suicidal] like you, I&#8217;d kill myself.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jadey</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1312</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1312</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been lurking here for a few weeks (and intend to continue doing so!), but in light of the last couple of comments, I wanted to share a quote that struck a deep chord with my mother and I (both TAB, and working in service positions that are not exclusively oriented to PWD or TAB people), from an article written by Rachel Naomi Remen: &quot;When you help, you see life as weak. When you fix, you see life as broken. When you serve, you see life as whole.&quot;

There is a link to the full article &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rachelremen.com/service.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. (I have tried to learn more about Dr. Remen, but my apologies if I have overlooked anything in her background or beliefs that is ablist, demeaning, or otherwise inappropriate to this blog.)

This is an excellent post. The subject of reproductive rights, definitions of personhood, and choice are incredibly complex, with varying intersections of privilege created by the misleading status quo. It is heartening to see more people taking on and talking about the important complications rather than dismissing them as irrelevant or simplistically distorting them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been lurking here for a few weeks (and intend to continue doing so!), but in light of the last couple of comments, I wanted to share a quote that struck a deep chord with my mother and I (both TAB, and working in service positions that are not exclusively oriented to PWD or TAB people), from an article written by Rachel Naomi Remen: &#8220;When you help, you see life as weak. When you fix, you see life as broken. When you serve, you see life as whole.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is a link to the full article <a href="http://www.rachelremen.com/service.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. (I have tried to learn more about Dr. Remen, but my apologies if I have overlooked anything in her background or beliefs that is ablist, demeaning, or otherwise inappropriate to this blog.)</p>
<p>This is an excellent post. The subject of reproductive rights, definitions of personhood, and choice are incredibly complex, with varying intersections of privilege created by the misleading status quo. It is heartening to see more people taking on and talking about the important complications rather than dismissing them as irrelevant or simplistically distorting them.</p>
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		<title>By: The White Lady</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1309</link>
		<dc:creator>The White Lady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1309</guid>
		<description>Yes yes yes!

Kaninchenzero, I too would be someone else if somebody took away my disability.  I like being who I am, when I&#039;m left to my own devices.  It&#039;s like Leelee said....it&#039;s only when somebody tries to fix me, or compel me to fix myself according to their definition of what fixed is, that I realise that in comparison to everybody else, I&#039;m broken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes yes yes!</p>
<p>Kaninchenzero, I too would be someone else if somebody took away my disability.  I like being who I am, when I&#8217;m left to my own devices.  It&#8217;s like Leelee said&#8230;.it&#8217;s only when somebody tries to fix me, or compel me to fix myself according to their definition of what fixed is, that I realise that in comparison to everybody else, I&#8217;m broken.</p>
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		<title>By: cathy</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/29/law-order-dignity-worth-and-the-medical-model-of-disability/#comment-1307</link>
		<dc:creator>cathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=1019#comment-1307</guid>
		<description>Look, I definitely do not believe that fetuses are persons, but in no way does that view nessecitate the view that selective abortion of fetuses based on disability (or sex or race) is good.  If we work from the premise that all fetuses are of equal value, then it does not follow that one would selectively abort.  The value of the disabled fetus is equivalent to the value of the nondisabled fetus (though I view neither as having the value of a person).  By suggesting that nondisabled fetuses are superior, one is assigning greater value to some fetuses, thereby asserting that in fact all fetuses are not equally valuable/not valuable.  We also must acknowledge that the reason that people see nonperson male fetuses or nondisabled fetuses as being more valuable because we (as a culture) assume that they will create &#039;inferior&#039; people, meaning that women and the disabled are less valuable.  So do I think that selective abortion of the disabled or females is good?  No.  However, I feel that the choice to continue or end a pregnancy is such a fundamental bodily right that people should be allowed to abort even for reasons that I would view as poor ones (such as potential disability of child).  The solution to this issue is not to dehumanize women, it is to improve access of pregnant women to information about the actual people who live with these conditions instead of having them be rushed into action by scare tactics from the medical establishment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, I definitely do not believe that fetuses are persons, but in no way does that view nessecitate the view that selective abortion of fetuses based on disability (or sex or race) is good.  If we work from the premise that all fetuses are of equal value, then it does not follow that one would selectively abort.  The value of the disabled fetus is equivalent to the value of the nondisabled fetus (though I view neither as having the value of a person).  By suggesting that nondisabled fetuses are superior, one is assigning greater value to some fetuses, thereby asserting that in fact all fetuses are not equally valuable/not valuable.  We also must acknowledge that the reason that people see nonperson male fetuses or nondisabled fetuses as being more valuable because we (as a culture) assume that they will create &#8216;inferior&#8217; people, meaning that women and the disabled are less valuable.  So do I think that selective abortion of the disabled or females is good?  No.  However, I feel that the choice to continue or end a pregnancy is such a fundamental bodily right that people should be allowed to abort even for reasons that I would view as poor ones (such as potential disability of child).  The solution to this issue is not to dehumanize women, it is to improve access of pregnant women to information about the actual people who live with these conditions instead of having them be rushed into action by scare tactics from the medical establishment.</p>
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