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	<title>Comments on: What We Talk About When We Talk About Language</title>
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	<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/</link>
	<description>FWD (feminists with disabilities) for a way forward</description>
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		<title>By: sanabituranima</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-1169</link>
		<dc:creator>sanabituranima</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-1169</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Just like no one calls a “train” an “iron horse” anymore.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

They totally should. :)

Great post.
.-= sanabituranima´s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://sanabituranima.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/a-murderer-and-a-thief/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A murderer and a thief&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Just like no one calls a “train” an “iron horse” anymore.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>They totally should. <img src='http://disabledfeminists.com/fwd/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Great post.<br />
.-= sanabituranima´s last blog ..<a href="http://sanabituranima.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/a-murderer-and-a-thief/" rel="nofollow">A murderer and a thief</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Kai</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Kai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-409</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...if I said ‘women and men are both attractive to me’ instead of ‘I’m bi’. It’s still correct, but it seems more passive? Sort of? I don’t know, someone with a deeper knowledge of grammar can probably point out why it feels a bit off.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, it&#039;s not particularly deep, but the reason is that the first formulation is passive and verbose, and the second is active and concise. That&#039;s like Strunk-White 101. 

It&#039;s really a simple thing which people tediously overthink in search of a slippery excuse to be assholes. If someone whose mobility is impaired (like, I have a chronic hip injury and a cane) is cool with &quot;lame&quot;, fine. If they find that word offensive, that&#039;s their legitimate reaction and right, so don&#039;t use the word, genius. If you write for a broad audience, don&#039;t be shocked that historically-loaded formulations offend, hurt, agitate, and anger people who read those words. If your knowledge is limited (say, you&#039;re too young to understand a word&#039;s history), don&#039;t defend your limitations and ignorance, but rather, be humble enough to learn from those with bigger views and grow. If you make an honest mistake, apologize and adjust. If you insist on offending people, expect them to fight back. What exactly is so complicated about this? It ain&#039;t advanced philosophy. It&#039;s basic human interaction.

Anyway. Really great blog! Glad you found value in my &quot;PC&quot; essay. ;-) Looking forward to reading here often.

Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;if I said ‘women and men are both attractive to me’ instead of ‘I’m bi’. It’s still correct, but it seems more passive? Sort of? I don’t know, someone with a deeper knowledge of grammar can probably point out why it feels a bit off.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, it&#8217;s not particularly deep, but the reason is that the first formulation is passive and verbose, and the second is active and concise. That&#8217;s like Strunk-White 101. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s really a simple thing which people tediously overthink in search of a slippery excuse to be assholes. If someone whose mobility is impaired (like, I have a chronic hip injury and a cane) is cool with &#8220;lame&#8221;, fine. If they find that word offensive, that&#8217;s their legitimate reaction and right, so don&#8217;t use the word, genius. If you write for a broad audience, don&#8217;t be shocked that historically-loaded formulations offend, hurt, agitate, and anger people who read those words. If your knowledge is limited (say, you&#8217;re too young to understand a word&#8217;s history), don&#8217;t defend your limitations and ignorance, but rather, be humble enough to learn from those with bigger views and grow. If you make an honest mistake, apologize and adjust. If you insist on offending people, expect them to fight back. What exactly is so complicated about this? It ain&#8217;t advanced philosophy. It&#8217;s basic human interaction.</p>
<p>Anyway. Really great blog! Glad you found value in my &#8220;PC&#8221; essay. <img src='http://disabledfeminists.com/fwd/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Looking forward to reading here often.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: minna</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-405</link>
		<dc:creator>minna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-405</guid>
		<description>Rargh, I believe my hiptop ate my post.  Why you gotta do that, phone ;_;

@the nerd (and to some extent the people who have already responded to that post)

I agree that it can be difficult to decide at what point the old meaning is lost to a new one.  I&#039;m a strong believer in the idea that language is a living thing, and that it belongs to the people who speak it, not just the people who write dictionaries.

I had a similar struggle to the one you have, in that it was a word I heard only in relation to animals being lamed, and that as an archaic use, or in the modern context of &quot;a bit crap&quot;.  Because I was raised without hearing it used in that context as well, so I just couldn&#039;t understand why people would personally identify with the term.  I think everyone here understands that using a term people identify with to say things are generically crap is hurtful, but the &#039;language changes&#039; argument tends to be based NOT on not understanding that side, but on not getting why people would identify with it in the first place.

But here&#039;s the thing.  In my experience, people with extreme difficulty with their hearing or vision are more likely to describe themselves as blind or deaf than as vision or hearing impaired.  And it&#039;s not something you&#039;d necessarily think about on our own, but it&#039;s an important point.  As someone who isn&#039;t wheelchair bound, but still has difficulty, and may need assistance, walking, how &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; you identify?  How &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; you describe yourself?  &#039;I need a cane/walker&#039; or &#039;I&#039;m mobility impaired&#039; are fine, sure, but they&#039;re also a little more clunky than the way people tend to refer to themselves and their own experiences.  Language is lazy.  We shortcut all the time, especially when referring to our own experiences.  Adn &#039;mobility impaired&#039; is a very broad term, while &#039;I need/use (insert assistive device)&#039; externalises it in a way that feels a bit...odd?  Like if I said &#039;women and men are both attractive to me&#039; instead of &#039;I&#039;m bi&#039;.  It&#039;s still correct, but it seems more passive?  Sort of?  I don&#039;t know, someone with a deeper knowledge of grammar can probably point out why it feels a bit off.

But anyway.  I thought about it -I mean, &lt;i&gt;a week&lt;/i&gt; of sitting there scribbling out pages and pages, trying to work out why it wasn&#039;t working in my head, why it wasn&#039;t clicking the way that all the other hurtful terms did, and I realised that we have two short, pointful, exact terms for that specific range of mobility issue -&#039;lame&#039; and &#039;crippled&#039;.  And I thought about it, and realised that in all honesty, if I ended up in a position where they applied to me, I&#039;d probably identify with them too -because those are the only words that are really there.

I could be completely off-base.  But it resonated for me emotionally in a way that none of the other explanations I&#039;ve seen have.  So I hope that&#039;s helpful.  I realise I meander a bit, but I didn&#039;t want to write off what you were saying as not a legitimate concern or point because I was there too.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rargh, I believe my hiptop ate my post.  Why you gotta do that, phone ;_;</p>
<p>@the nerd (and to some extent the people who have already responded to that post)</p>
<p>I agree that it can be difficult to decide at what point the old meaning is lost to a new one.  I&#8217;m a strong believer in the idea that language is a living thing, and that it belongs to the people who speak it, not just the people who write dictionaries.</p>
<p>I had a similar struggle to the one you have, in that it was a word I heard only in relation to animals being lamed, and that as an archaic use, or in the modern context of &#8220;a bit crap&#8221;.  Because I was raised without hearing it used in that context as well, so I just couldn&#8217;t understand why people would personally identify with the term.  I think everyone here understands that using a term people identify with to say things are generically crap is hurtful, but the &#8216;language changes&#8217; argument tends to be based NOT on not understanding that side, but on not getting why people would identify with it in the first place.</p>
<p>But here&#8217;s the thing.  In my experience, people with extreme difficulty with their hearing or vision are more likely to describe themselves as blind or deaf than as vision or hearing impaired.  And it&#8217;s not something you&#8217;d necessarily think about on our own, but it&#8217;s an important point.  As someone who isn&#8217;t wheelchair bound, but still has difficulty, and may need assistance, walking, how <i>would</i> you identify?  How <i>would</i> you describe yourself?  &#8216;I need a cane/walker&#8217; or &#8216;I&#8217;m mobility impaired&#8217; are fine, sure, but they&#8217;re also a little more clunky than the way people tend to refer to themselves and their own experiences.  Language is lazy.  We shortcut all the time, especially when referring to our own experiences.  Adn &#8216;mobility impaired&#8217; is a very broad term, while &#8216;I need/use (insert assistive device)&#8217; externalises it in a way that feels a bit&#8230;odd?  Like if I said &#8216;women and men are both attractive to me&#8217; instead of &#8216;I&#8217;m bi&#8217;.  It&#8217;s still correct, but it seems more passive?  Sort of?  I don&#8217;t know, someone with a deeper knowledge of grammar can probably point out why it feels a bit off.</p>
<p>But anyway.  I thought about it -I mean, <i>a week</i> of sitting there scribbling out pages and pages, trying to work out why it wasn&#8217;t working in my head, why it wasn&#8217;t clicking the way that all the other hurtful terms did, and I realised that we have two short, pointful, exact terms for that specific range of mobility issue -&#8217;lame&#8217; and &#8216;crippled&#8217;.  And I thought about it, and realised that in all honesty, if I ended up in a position where they applied to me, I&#8217;d probably identify with them too -because those are the only words that are really there.</p>
<p>I could be completely off-base.  But it resonated for me emotionally in a way that none of the other explanations I&#8217;ve seen have.  So I hope that&#8217;s helpful.  I realise I meander a bit, but I didn&#8217;t want to write off what you were saying as not a legitimate concern or point because I was there too.  <img src='http://disabledfeminists.com/fwd/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: kaninchenzero</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-385</link>
		<dc:creator>kaninchenzero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-385</guid>
		<description>Fine.  Consider me corrected:

What we are trying to do is to raise awareness that these words are &lt;strike&gt;hurtful&lt;/strike&gt; exclusionary and oppressive — and as we are advocates for social justice, we assert that persons who are &lt;strike&gt;hurt&lt;/strike&gt; excluded and oppressed define &lt;strike&gt;harm&lt;/strike&gt; exclusion and oppression, not persons doing &lt;strike&gt;harm&lt;/strike&gt; the excluding and oppressing. We hope that people who wish to be less &lt;strike&gt;harmful&lt;/strike&gt; exclusionary and oppressive to others, especially to marginalized persons, would use these words less knowing the effects they have.

This is basic stuff.  Racists do not get to define what is racist bigotry; sexists do not get to define what is sexual harrassment.  Similarly, those of us who live with physical and mental conditions that mark us as disabled because the societies and environments in which we live fail to provide us access on our terms get to define what is ableist language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fine.  Consider me corrected:</p>
<p>What we are trying to do is to raise awareness that these words are <strike>hurtful</strike> exclusionary and oppressive — and as we are advocates for social justice, we assert that persons who are <strike>hurt</strike> excluded and oppressed define <strike>harm</strike> exclusion and oppression, not persons doing <strike>harm</strike> the excluding and oppressing. We hope that people who wish to be less <strike>harmful</strike> exclusionary and oppressive to others, especially to marginalized persons, would use these words less knowing the effects they have.</p>
<p>This is basic stuff.  Racists do not get to define what is racist bigotry; sexists do not get to define what is sexual harrassment.  Similarly, those of us who live with physical and mental conditions that mark us as disabled because the societies and environments in which we live fail to provide us access on our terms get to define what is ableist language.</p>
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		<title>By: mischiefmanager</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-375</link>
		<dc:creator>mischiefmanager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-375</guid>
		<description>http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/t.htm, for instance.

Well, okay, kaninchenzero, but as standards of hurtfulness differ for everyone, as you say, then anyone can be guilty at any time depending on how the hearer feels.  That doesn&#039;t give speakers much to go on, does it?  And saying that &quot;then you should just not use hurtful words&quot; begs the question.

I think this is a useful and important site, and I wish it a long and productive life.  I have a lot of questions about this whole area and I&#039;ll be reading with interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/t.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/t.htm</a>, for instance.</p>
<p>Well, okay, kaninchenzero, but as standards of hurtfulness differ for everyone, as you say, then anyone can be guilty at any time depending on how the hearer feels.  That doesn&#8217;t give speakers much to go on, does it?  And saying that &#8220;then you should just not use hurtful words&#8221; begs the question.</p>
<p>I think this is a useful and important site, and I wish it a long and productive life.  I have a lot of questions about this whole area and I&#8217;ll be reading with interest.</p>
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		<title>By: kaninchenzero</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-369</link>
		<dc:creator>kaninchenzero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-369</guid>
		<description>Outstanding.  Our commenter found it appropriate to use a common silencing/derailing tactic in attaching the &quot;language police&quot; (a derivative of the &quot;PC police&quot; canard) to meloukhia while simultaneously correcting her on a point of language.  I personally would have found the cognitive dissonance too uncomfortable, but mileage varies.

It&#039;s been said before but it seems to need repeating: Nothing in this post nor in our &lt;a href=&quot;http://disabledfeminists.com/?cat=43&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ableist Word Profile&lt;/a&gt; series bans the use of any word in any context by any person.  We don&#039;t have that power over society, though here we will enforce our &lt;a href=&quot;http://disabledfeminists.com/?page_id=9&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;comments policy&lt;/a&gt; by whatever means we deem appropriate.

What we are trying to do is to raise awareness that these words &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; hurtful -- and as we are advocates for social justice, we assert that persons who are hurt define harm, not persons doing harm.  We hope that people who wish to be less harmful to others, especially to marginalized persons, would use these words less knowing the effects they have.

If that is policing then so is saying &quot;You&#039;re standing on my foot and it hurts; please move.&quot;

Consider this a warning, mischiefmanager.  Pointing out the use of exclusionary language by contributors and commentors is encouraged.  Derailing will not be tolerated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Outstanding.  Our commenter found it appropriate to use a common silencing/derailing tactic in attaching the &#8220;language police&#8221; (a derivative of the &#8220;PC police&#8221; canard) to meloukhia while simultaneously correcting her on a point of language.  I personally would have found the cognitive dissonance too uncomfortable, but mileage varies.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s been said before but it seems to need repeating: Nothing in this post nor in our <a href="http://disabledfeminists.com/?cat=43" rel="nofollow">Ableist Word Profile</a> series bans the use of any word in any context by any person.  We don&#8217;t have that power over society, though here we will enforce our <a href="http://disabledfeminists.com/?page_id=9" rel="nofollow">comments policy</a> by whatever means we deem appropriate.</p>
<p>What we are trying to do is to raise awareness that these words <em>are</em> hurtful &#8212; and as we are advocates for social justice, we assert that persons who are hurt define harm, not persons doing harm.  We hope that people who wish to be less harmful to others, especially to marginalized persons, would use these words less knowing the effects they have.</p>
<p>If that is policing then so is saying &#8220;You&#8217;re standing on my foot and it hurts; please move.&#8221;</p>
<p>Consider this a warning, mischiefmanager.  Pointing out the use of exclusionary language by contributors and commentors is encouraged.  Derailing will not be tolerated.</p>
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		<title>By: meloukhia</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-360</link>
		<dc:creator>meloukhia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-360</guid>
		<description>See, and this is why we talk about language, mischiefmanager, so that when people use terms with offensive origins and they learn about those origins, they can stop using them! This has nothing to do with being the &quot;language police&quot; and everything to do with using language which does not exclude and marginalize people.

ETA: Although I would note that the etymological origins of the term in question actually appear to be related to the English penal system, in which convicts would wrap rags around their feet because they could not afford shoes. Which isn&#039;t exactly a pleasant origin either, but I do feel it&#039;s important to do my due diligence when challenged on language use, and I can&#039;t find a source which references the word in a homeless context; could you provide a source? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, and this is why we talk about language, mischiefmanager, so that when people use terms with offensive origins and they learn about those origins, they can stop using them! This has nothing to do with being the &#8220;language police&#8221; and everything to do with using language which does not exclude and marginalize people.</p>
<p>ETA: Although I would note that the etymological origins of the term in question actually appear to be related to the English penal system, in which convicts would wrap rags around their feet because they could not afford shoes. Which isn&#8217;t exactly a pleasant origin either, but I do feel it&#8217;s important to do my due diligence when challenged on language use, and I can&#8217;t find a source which references the word in a homeless context; could you provide a source?</p>
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		<title>By: mischiefmanager</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-353</link>
		<dc:creator>mischiefmanager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-353</guid>
		<description>Meloukhia, you might want to know that &quot;toerag&quot; is an insult derived from the socks poor/homeless people wear that get to be rags because the wearer has no money to replace them.  Do you want to be using a term that insults the poor and homeless?

Donning the language police uniform can result in a very tight fit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meloukhia, you might want to know that &#8220;toerag&#8221; is an insult derived from the socks poor/homeless people wear that get to be rags because the wearer has no money to replace them.  Do you want to be using a term that insults the poor and homeless?</p>
<p>Donning the language police uniform can result in a very tight fit.</p>
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		<title>By: Sasha_feather</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>Sasha_feather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-349</guid>
		<description>This post has been included in a &lt;a href=&quot;http://access-fandom.dreamwidth.org/2852.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;linkspam at access_fandom&lt;/a&gt;.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post has been included in a <a href="http://access-fandom.dreamwidth.org/2852.html" rel="nofollow">linkspam at access_fandom</a>.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: kaninchenzero</title>
		<link>http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/16/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-language/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>kaninchenzero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://disabledfeminists.com/?p=191#comment-299</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to presume that your post was meant in good faith and not as a silencing tactic.  But you should know, The Nerd, that this isn&#039;t a difficult gray area at all and saying that it is seems to be a favorite pastime of those who want to keep the privilege of using exclusionary language.  The only people I&#039;ve heard use &#039;gay&#039; to mean happy merry lively fall into two categories: those who erroneously believe that an ironic tone of voice makes the bigoted things they are saying funny (my brother is among these charming people) and those who complain that the homosexuals ruined a perfectly good word for the normal people.  Similarly, there have been enough people with mobility impairments here and elsewhere reporting that &#039;lame&#039; &lt;em&gt;means them&lt;/em&gt; that perhaps they should be granted the courtesy of assuming that they can accurately describe their own experiences, all right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to presume that your post was meant in good faith and not as a silencing tactic.  But you should know, The Nerd, that this isn&#8217;t a difficult gray area at all and saying that it is seems to be a favorite pastime of those who want to keep the privilege of using exclusionary language.  The only people I&#8217;ve heard use &#8216;gay&#8217; to mean happy merry lively fall into two categories: those who erroneously believe that an ironic tone of voice makes the bigoted things they are saying funny (my brother is among these charming people) and those who complain that the homosexuals ruined a perfectly good word for the normal people.  Similarly, there have been enough people with mobility impairments here and elsewhere reporting that &#8216;lame&#8217; <em>means them</em> that perhaps they should be granted the courtesy of assuming that they can accurately describe their own experiences, all right?</p>
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